Tears of the Kingdom looks just as bad as BOTW

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Silentchief

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#101 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 5561 Posts

@Pedro said:
@silentchief said:

That's fine, I could care less about your opinion

πŸ˜‚ Who are you trying to fool.🀣

Using one's opinion to validate an argument is a waste of time. I don't make a broad statement as if it's a fact and than back it up with " because I said so".

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Archangel3371

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#102 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 40842 Posts

@ConanTheStoner: Yeah, I try not to be too much of a stickler for grammatical errors but man it can really be a pet peeve especially when you see such bad ones repeatably used.

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Pedro

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#103  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 63301 Posts
@silentchief said:

Using one's opinion to validate an argument is a waste of time. I don't make a broad statement as if it's a fact and than back it up with " because I said so".

If someone says Sony games are pitiful, then it is clear they are sharing their opinion. You can then share your opinion that is different and move on. πŸ€·πŸ½β€β™€οΈ

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Silentchief

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#104 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 5561 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@ConanTheStoner: Yeah, I try not to be too much of a stickler for grammatical errors but man it can really be a pet peeve especially when you see such bad ones repeatably used.

Yea I fixed it in the edit, Jesus christ.

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Archangel3371

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#105 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 40842 Posts

@silentchief: No hard feelings, just do better next time. Live and learn and all that jazz. πŸ‘πŸ˜œ

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Silentchief

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#106 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 5561 Posts

@Archangel3371: Yea that's a top priority of mine. I got to make sure my grammar is accurate on this dead forum. Next time I post on the toilet from my mobile phone I'll triple check it 🀣.

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Archangel3371

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#107 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 40842 Posts

@silentchief: TMI but I’m happy to see you learning. πŸ˜…πŸ‘

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Maroxad

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#108  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@silentchief said:
@Pedro said:
@silentchief said:

That's fine, I could care less about your opinion

πŸ˜‚ Who are you trying to fool.🀣

Using one's opinion to validate an argument is a waste of time. I don't make a broad statement as if it's a fact and than back it up with " because I said so".

Pretty much every word I used was an opinionated statement, rather than an objective.

Saying something is pitiful is an OPINION. If I stated a factual (inaccurate in this case), I would have said something like, "Sony's games appeal to no one".

In the future, maybe this video can help you out, sadly PBS removed the game so only YouTube videos remain.

Loading Video...

This is not the Political Gamers board, where I argue mostly on objective grounds. This is System Wars, where we mostly discuss opinions. I can be objective when I describe attributes of a game, but for most of the part I am just posting my opinion.

An objective statement surrounding games,

"Breath of the Wild is a video game that allows you to use its physics and chemistry engine to invent your own unorthodox solution to any shrine in the game."

A subjective opinion (one that I do hold) would be,

"The PC Exclusive Dwarf Fortress, allows you a greater amount of freedom than Breath of the Wild."

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Mozelleple112

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#109  Edited By Mozelleple112
Member since 2011 • 9630 Posts

@Maroxad: My one ever so slight complaint with Elden Ring is that there is not enough RPG elements. I wish there were class specific abilities (e.g. astrologers regen mana over time, assassin's don't need to crouch to be silent, etc, etc...) and that the stats actually scale to 99 instead of softcapping around 40-55 and hardcapping around 60-80.

My main build is level 335 character fairly spread out between FTH/DEX/STR/ARC.... Basically everything but intelligence.

I was I was more forced to stick to FTH or ARC...

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#110 SecretPolice  Online
Member since 2007 • 42229 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@SecretPolice: You guys are so far behind. Up here in Canada we’re getting Zelda rehash number 8999. LOL

Good stuff. ;)

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Maroxad

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#111 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts

@Mozelleple112 said:

@Maroxad: My one ever so slight complaint with Elden Ring is that there is not enough RPG elements. I wish there were class specific abilities (e.g. astrologers regen mana over time, assassin's don't need to crouch to be silent, etc, etc...) and that the stats actually scale to 99 instead of softcapping around 40-55 and hardcapping around 60-80.

My main build is level 335 character fairly spread out between FTH/DEX/STR/ARC.... Basically everything but intelligence.

I was I was more forced to stick to FTH or ARC...

I would argue Elden RIng should get rid of them entirely. But since that is unlikely, I would instead hope they

  • Merge Str and Dex into Strength
  • Merge Int and Faith into Magic
  • Raise starting attributes, do give your starting class a greater impact
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Silentchief

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#112 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 5561 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@silentchief said:
@Pedro said:
@silentchief said:

That's fine, I could care less about your opinion

πŸ˜‚ Who are you trying to fool.🀣

Using one's opinion to validate an argument is a waste of time. I don't make a broad statement as if it's a fact and than back it up with " because I said so".

Pretty much every word I used was an opinionated statement, rather than an objective.

Saying something is pitiful is an OPINION. If I stated a factual (inaccurate in this case), I would have said something like, "Sony's games appeal to no one".

In the future, maybe this video can help you out, sadly PBS removed the game so only YouTube videos remain.

Loading Video...

This is not the Political Gamers board, where I argue mostly on objective grounds. This is System Wars, where we mostly discuss opinions. I can be objective when I describe attributes of a game, but for most of the part I am just posting my opinion.

An objective statement surrounding games,

"Breath of the Wild is a video game that allows you to use its physics and chemistry engine to invent your own unorthodox solution to any shrine in the game."

A subjective opinion (one that I do hold) would be,

"The PC Exclusive Dwarf Fortress, allows you a greater amount of freedom than Breath of the Wild."

I was referring mostly to the statement. " Sony's output has been pitiful this gen". I would have said something like " Sony hasn't released any ganes that appeal to me this gen.

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Maroxad

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#113  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@silentchief said:

I was referring mostly to the statement. " Sony's output has been pitiful this gen". I would have said something like " Sony hasn't released any ganes that appeal to me this gen.

"Sony's output has been pitiful this gen" is a subjective statement.

The fact that EVERYONE here got it, save for you. means the likely problem was with you, not my statement.

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Silentchief

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#114 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 5561 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@silentchief said:

I was referring mostly to the statement. " Sony's output has been pitiful this gen". I would have said something like " Sony hasn't released any ganes that appeal to me this gen.

"Sony's output has been pitiful this gen" is a subjective statement.

The fact that EVERYONE here got it, save for you. means the likely problem was with you, not my statement.

The only one struggling here is you. I specifically mentioned your statement lacked any objective reasoning. In other words you're an emotional fanboy. Glad you acknowledge that though.

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Maroxad

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#115  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@silentchief said:
@Maroxad said:
@silentchief said:

I was referring mostly to the statement. " Sony's output has been pitiful this gen". I would have said something like " Sony hasn't released any ganes that appeal to me this gen.

"Sony's output has been pitiful this gen" is a subjective statement.

The fact that EVERYONE here got it, save for you. means the likely problem was with you, not my statement.

The only one struggling here is you. I specifically mentioned your statement lacked any objective reasoning. In other words you're an emotional fanboy. Glad you acknowledge that though.

You threw a hissy fit after an someone posted their opinion. Started ad homming them, and put words in their mouth.

Don't try to act otherwise.

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hardwenzen

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#116 hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@Mozelleple112 said:

@Maroxad: My one ever so slight complaint with Elden Ring is that there is not enough RPG elements. I wish there were class specific abilities (e.g. astrologers regen mana over time, assassin's don't need to crouch to be silent, etc, etc...) and that the stats actually scale to 99 instead of softcapping around 40-55 and hardcapping around 60-80.

My main build is level 335 character fairly spread out between FTH/DEX/STR/ARC.... Basically everything but intelligence.

I was I was more forced to stick to FTH or ARC...

I would argue Elden RIng should get rid of them entirely. But since that is unlikely, I would instead hope they

  • Merge Str and Dex into Strength
  • Merge Int and Faith into Magic
  • Raise starting attributes, do give your starting class a greater impact

NEVER suggest anything related to a Fromsoft title again. Stick to your simpleton Nintendo titles that are straight up mobile games made for people who've never held a controller in their life.

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#117  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:

NEVER suggest anything related to a Fromsoft title again. Stick to your simpleton Nintendo titles that are straight up mobile games made for people who've never held a controller in their life.

Having a lot of stats is fine when the game actually utilizes them. In Elden Ring you have 2 stats that are identical save for whcih weapons scale and by how much, and another 2 stats that are also identical save for the spells (and weapons) they affect. Elden Ring arbitrarily locks you out of weapons for no good reason. Which is a part of the reasons dungeon rewards in that game were so underwhelming.

Choosing between dex and str is not a very big choice. You choose what weapon you want.

There are plenty of games that also have a str/dex weapon differentiation, but unlike Elden Ring. These games actually make it an interesting choice.

In D&D Str based fighters have higher AC, Damage, Can Utilize Great Weapon Proficiencies, are more athletic which allows for grappling and similar actions. But Dex based fighters, have higher initiative (meaning they usually get to act sooner), can utiliize stealth, have a much better saving throw in Dexterity, and dexterity is used in a lot of non-combat skills too.

Choosing between Dex or Str is actually an interesting choice in D&D, it is not in FromSoft games.

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#118  Edited By hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

NEVER suggest anything related to a Fromsoft title again. Stick to your simpleton Nintendo titles that are straight up mobile games made for people who've never held a controller in their life.

Having a lot of stats is fine when the game actually utilizes them. In Elden Ring you have 2 stats that are identical save for the weapon they affect, and another 2 stats that are also identical save for the spells (and weapons) they affect. Elden Ring arbitrarily locks you out of weapons for no good reason. Which is a part of the reasons dungeon rewards in that game were so underwhelming.

It utilizes them. Its you who don't.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Asking for simpification when the whole point of replayability of Fromsoft titles is running different builds in pve and the main reason why the likes of myself spends hundreds or thousands of hours in pvp, is the build diversity. You don't understand this because you play this like an IGN reviewer. The first good weapon drops, you allocate all your points to the scaling state, max you wep and call it a day. Wouldn't be surprised if you did your whole playthrough without resetting your points a single time to try something else.

You're a casual, and casuals should never suggest anything unless its a mobile game. Stick to Nintendo games, bro.

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Maroxad

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#119  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

NEVER suggest anything related to a Fromsoft title again. Stick to your simpleton Nintendo titles that are straight up mobile games made for people who've never held a controller in their life.

Having a lot of stats is fine when the game actually utilizes them. In Elden Ring you have 2 stats that are identical save for the weapon they affect, and another 2 stats that are also identical save for the spells (and weapons) they affect. Elden Ring arbitrarily locks you out of weapons for no good reason. Which is a part of the reasons dungeon rewards in that game were so underwhelming.

It utilizes them. Its you who don't.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Asking for simpification when the whole point of replayability of Fromsoft titles is running different builds in pve and the main reason why the likes of myself spends hundreds or thousands of hours in pvp, is the build diversity. You don't understand this because you play this like an IGN reviewer. The first good weapon drops, you allocate all your points to the scaling state, max you wep and call it a day. Wouldn't be surprised if you did your whole playthrough without resetting your points a single time to try something else.

You're a casual, and casuals should never suggest anything unless its a mobile game. Stick to Nintendo games, bro.

If you arent using a weapon that scales with Dexterity, how will dexterity impact you?
If you arent using a weapon that scales with Strength, how will strength impact you?

If you played actual RPGs, you would realize just how weaksauce the From Soft character system is. The itemization is good, but the actual attributes are really underdeveloped compared to any half decent rpg.

My favorite Attribute system has 19 different attributes. It works, because all of them are actually utilized.

There are no opportunity costs from having a low intelligence if you arent planning on using a glintstone staff. Dump Stats and main stats are obvious. And the choice is illusionary at best. In fact, because of how much it limits your weapon choices. I would argue the stat system outright discouraged players exploring with their arsenal.

This is why I am so glad Breath of the Wild does not have builds. If you find an item, you can use it. No arbitary restrictions.

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hardwenzen

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#120 hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

NEVER suggest anything related to a Fromsoft title again. Stick to your simpleton Nintendo titles that are straight up mobile games made for people who've never held a controller in their life.

Having a lot of stats is fine when the game actually utilizes them. In Elden Ring you have 2 stats that are identical save for the weapon they affect, and another 2 stats that are also identical save for the spells (and weapons) they affect. Elden Ring arbitrarily locks you out of weapons for no good reason. Which is a part of the reasons dungeon rewards in that game were so underwhelming.

It utilizes them. Its you who don't.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Asking for simpification when the whole point of replayability of Fromsoft titles is running different builds in pve and the main reason why the likes of myself spends hundreds or thousands of hours in pvp, is the build diversity. You don't understand this because you play this like an IGN reviewer. The first good weapon drops, you allocate all your points to the scaling state, max you wep and call it a day. Wouldn't be surprised if you did your whole playthrough without resetting your points a single time to try something else.

You're a casual, and casuals should never suggest anything unless its a mobile game. Stick to Nintendo games, bro.

If you arent using a weapon that scales with Dexterity, how will dexterity impact you?

If you arent using a weapon that scales with Strength, how will strength impact you?

If you played actual RPGs, you would realize just how weaksauce the From Soft character system is. The itemization is good, but the actual attributes are really underdeveloped compared to any half decent rpg.

You're such a noob. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but still arguing with the hardwenzensoulswikipedia since before ER was even released. Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

Firstly, you could be using multiple weapons as a weapon swap for different move sets/ashes of war. If you understood pvp, you wouldn't have asked that question to begin with.

Secondly, Dex increases your cast speed, which is useful for int and faith builds, especially at higher level when you can invest 30-70 dex for fast casting while also having high(er) melee damage.

Third, strength increases your two handing damage, so it doesn't matter if your weapon scales primarily with Str or not, you will deal more dps while two handing if you've invested into strength. Some incantations scale off of strength as well, so you can be running a faith/strength build if you wanted.

So really, bruh, just go stick two rocks with each other in totk and pretend it has depth. Souls titles are clearly too complicated for you.


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Maroxad

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#121  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:

You're such a noob. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but still arguing with the hardwenzensoulswikipedia since before ER was even released. Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

Firstly, you could be using multiple weapons as a weapon swap for different move sets/ashes of war. If you understood pvp, you wouldn't have asked that question to begin with.

Secondly, Dex increases your cast speed, which is useful for int and faith builds, especially at higher level when you can invest 30-70 dex for fast casting while also having high(er) melee damage.

Third, strength increases your two handing damage, so it doesn't matter if your weapon scales primarily with Str or not, you will deal more dps while two handing if you've invested into strength. Some incantations scale off of strength as well, so you can be running a faith/strength build if you wanted.

So really, bruh, just go stick two rocks with each other in totk and pretend it has depth. Souls titles are clearly too complicated for you.

The only good point you made here is about Dex increasing spellcasting speeds. I never played a mage in Elden Ring though.

Weapon swap doesnt make the str v dex choice any more interesting. And you once again bring up the problem I brought up with the ER attribute system. Unless your stuff scale off an attribute, they do nothing. There is no opportunity cost to ignoring attributes that don't scale your current kit.

2 Handing increases your strength by 50%.

This isnt about mobile games. This is about The ER attribute system being really poorly executed. And it actually gets in the way of the itemization, which ER does right.

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hardwenzen

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#122  Edited By hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

You're such a noob. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but still arguing with the hardwenzensoulswikipedia since before ER was even released. Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

Firstly, you could be using multiple weapons as a weapon swap for different move sets/ashes of war. If you understood pvp, you wouldn't have asked that question to begin with.

Secondly, Dex increases your cast speed, which is useful for int and faith builds, especially at higher level when you can invest 30-70 dex for fast casting while also having high(er) melee damage.

Third, strength increases your two handing damage, so it doesn't matter if your weapon scales primarily with Str or not, you will deal more dps while two handing if you've invested into strength. Some incantations scale off of strength as well, so you can be running a faith/strength build if you wanted.

So really, bruh, just go stick two rocks with each other in totk and pretend it has depth. Souls titles are clearly too complicated for you.

The only good point you made here is about Dex increasing spellcasting speeds. I never played a mage in Elden Ring though.

Weapon swap doesnt make the str v dex choice any more interesting. And you once again bring up the problem I brought up with the ER attribute system. Unless your stuff scale off an attribute, they do nothing. There is no opportunity cost to ignoring attributes that don't scale your current kit.

2 Handing increases your strength by 50%.

This isnt about mobile games. This is about The ER attribute system being really poorly executed. And it actually gets in the way of the itemization, which ER does right.

Str as a stat is on a lot of weapons. You don't have to use a strength build to have some requirement from Str. This balances out the stats spread, partially removing powerfcreep at lower levels. And the other points i've mentioned are valid, but as always, because you want to simplify everything, you ignore them cuz you want this to become Angry Birds 2.

You're literally the only person i've ever heard bitchin' about attributes in a souls game. People complained that there's nothing like it in Sekiro, and here you are, the one who wants it to be simplified to obivion. I think you're playing the wrong games, bro. You need to stick with Nintendo titles where you're jumping on mushrooms and collect stars. That way you wouldn't be able to ignore any stats cuz there's none to begin withπŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

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#123  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:

Str as a stat is on a lot of weapons. You don't have to use a strength build to have some requirement from Str. This balances out the stats spread, partially removing powerfcreep at lower levels. And the other points i've mentioned are valid, but as always, because you want to simplify everything, you ignore them cuz you want this to become Angry Birds 2.

You're literally the only person i've ever heard bitchin' about attributes in a souls game. People complained that there's nothing like it in Sekiro, and here you are, the one who wants to be simplified to obivion. I think you're playing the wrong games, bro. You need to stick with Nintendo titles where you're jumping on mushrooms and collect stars. That way you wouldn't be able to ignore any stats cuz there's none to begin withπŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Again, nothing you changes takes away from the fact that 4 of ER's attributes only impact your build utilizes them. They are obvious dump stats otherwise.

And people havent mentioned ER in particular but people have been vocal about attribute systems sucking as a concept, especially in RPG communities. It is a vestige from D&D. All of the flaws, they bring up are just as present in Elden Ring, some of them even worse.

If a weapon I use has A scaling in Strength, and D scaling in Dex, Why would I ever want to put points in Dex, unless I specifically want to use a weapon that also scales more with Dex? In Pathfinder, my Barbarian will still want AC and reflex saves. More intelligence means they can learn more languages and skills. Wisdom will be great for saving throws.

My reason for opposing ER's attributes is simple. I don't like feature bloat. If you are gonna implement something, do it right. And unfortunately. ER does not do attributes well at all.

What exactly would Elden Ring lose, by merging str and dex?

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hardwenzen

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#124 hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

Str as a stat is on a lot of weapons. You don't have to use a strength build to have some requirement from Str. This balances out the stats spread, partially removing powerfcreep at lower levels. And the other points i've mentioned are valid, but as always, because you want to simplify everything, you ignore them cuz you want this to become Angry Birds 2.

You're literally the only person i've ever heard bitchin' about attributes in a souls game. People complained that there's nothing like it in Sekiro, and here you are, the one who wants to be simplified to obivion. I think you're playing the wrong games, bro. You need to stick with Nintendo titles where you're jumping on mushrooms and collect stars. That way you wouldn't be able to ignore any stats cuz there's none to begin withπŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Again, nothing you changes takes away from the fact that 4 of ER's attributes only impact your build utilizes them. They are obvious dump stats otherwise.

And people havent mentioned ER in particular but people have been vocal about attribute systems sucking as a concept, especially in RPG communities. It is a vestige from D&D. All of the flaws, they bring up are just as present in Elden Ring, some of them even worse.

If a weapon I use has A scaling in Strength, and D scaling in Dex, Why would I ever want to put points in Dex, unless I specifically want to use a weapon that also scales more with Dex? In Pathfinder, my Barbarian will still want AC and reflex saves. More intelligence means they can learn more languages and skills. Wisdom will be great for saving throws.

My reason for opposing ER's attributes is simple. I don't like feature bloat. If you are gonna implement something, do it right. And unfortunately. ER does not do attributes well at all.

What exactly would Elden Ring lose, by merging str and dex?

The only dump state Fromsoft titles had is adaptability in DkS2. You running 1 generic build for your whole playthrough does not mean that someone who spends hundreds of hours in pvp OR going for NG+7 won't be taking advantage of everything in the game when it comes to attributes.

This is a lie that you've made up to create an argument. I play and follow these games since the very beginning. The only negative you ever hear about its stats is that its very confusing for someone who is new to Fromsoft titles, which is true, but this is not a simpleton's Zelda game, its not supposed to be instantly understood. Its called learning the god damn game.

Because there are something something called Quality builds. Dex stat scaling might begin with a D, but end up with a B, which will give you a lot of additional damage. But lets say that this is not the case, combining Dex and Str into one is incredibly dumb. Dex is usually there for Dex class weapons such as Katanas, Spears, etc. Strength is for Great Axes, Ultra GS's, etc. Having ultra greatswords scale with Dex would be the kind of simplification you'd see on a f2p game on your phone, and that is what you want? Well, i am not surprised, but your idea is dumb, and nobody in the whole massive souls community wants it.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

ER, more so than any previously released souls titles, offers a humongus amount of build diversity. Not many games in the whole industry can even approach what's on offer here. And it doesn't even matter if the majority of those builds are nowhere near what you'd consider as "meta". What's important is that a person who is playing the game for the first time, they can built their character EXACTLY the way they want it to be. This kind of flexibility is one of the things that makes these games immersive.

Read paragraph 3.

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#125  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

Str as a stat is on a lot of weapons. You don't have to use a strength build to have some requirement from Str. This balances out the stats spread, partially removing powerfcreep at lower levels. And the other points i've mentioned are valid, but as always, because you want to simplify everything, you ignore them cuz you want this to become Angry Birds 2.

You're literally the only person i've ever heard bitchin' about attributes in a souls game. People complained that there's nothing like it in Sekiro, and here you are, the one who wants to be simplified to obivion. I think you're playing the wrong games, bro. You need to stick with Nintendo titles where you're jumping on mushrooms and collect stars. That way you wouldn't be able to ignore any stats cuz there's none to begin withπŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Again, nothing you changes takes away from the fact that 4 of ER's attributes only impact your build utilizes them. They are obvious dump stats otherwise.

And people havent mentioned ER in particular but people have been vocal about attribute systems sucking as a concept, especially in RPG communities. It is a vestige from D&D. All of the flaws, they bring up are just as present in Elden Ring, some of them even worse.

If a weapon I use has A scaling in Strength, and D scaling in Dex, Why would I ever want to put points in Dex, unless I specifically want to use a weapon that also scales more with Dex? In Pathfinder, my Barbarian will still want AC and reflex saves. More intelligence means they can learn more languages and skills. Wisdom will be great for saving throws.

My reason for opposing ER's attributes is simple. I don't like feature bloat. If you are gonna implement something, do it right. And unfortunately. ER does not do attributes well at all.

What exactly would Elden Ring lose, by merging str and dex?

The only dump state Fromsoft titles had is adaptability in DkS2. You running 1 generic build for your whole playthrough does not mean that someone who spends hundreds of hours in pvp OR going for NG+7 won't be taking advantage of everything in the game when it comes to attributes.

This is a lie that you've made up to create an argument. I play and follow these games since the very beginning. The only negative you ever hear about its stats is that its very confusing for someone who is new to Fromsoft titles, which is true, but this is not a simpleton's Zelda game, its not supposed to be instantly understood. Its called learning the god damn game.

Because there are something something called Quality builds. Dex stat scaling might begin with a D, but end up with a B, which will give you a lot of additional damage. But lets say that this is not the case, combining Dex and Str into one is incredibly dumb. Dex is usually there for Dex class weapons such as Katanas, Spears, etc. Strength is for Great Axes, Ultra GS's, etc. Having ultra greatswords scale with Dex would be the kind of simplification you'd see on a f2p game on your phone, and that is what you want? Well, i am not surprised, but your idea is dumb, and nobody in the whole massive souls community wants it.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

ER, more so than any previously released souls titles, offers a humongus amount of build diversity. Not many games in the whole industry can even approach what's on offer here. And it doesn't even matter if the majority of those builds are nowhere near what you'd consider as "meta". What's important is that a person who is playing the game for the first time, they can built their character EXACTLY the way they want it to be. This kind of flexibility is one of the things that makes these games immersive.

Read paragraph 3.

If you run a str build that doesnt use magic, Int and faith are obvious dump stats. They wont do anything for you.

In fact, now that I have woken up, I have heard plenty of people be critical of the system. There is a reason there that Sekiro got a lot of praise, the removal of RPG elements was one of them.

As usual, you fall straight back to ignoring the actual issue. The issue with Elden Ring's 4 scalilng attributes is just that. They do nothing but scale certain weapons (also spell speed for dex). I am not asking for more weapon scaling, I am asking for ways those attributes affect you outside weapon scaling. Why exactly do you think I brought up Pathfinder? My argument does not come from mobile phone games at all. They come from having actually played Tabletop RPGs. Have you even played Tabletop RPGs?

It is not about "meta" at all. It is pretty obvious for a first time player, that they some stats will benefit them more than others. But in turn, being stuck with dex weapons or str weapons. Will SEVERELY limit what weapons they can use. And in turn, limit their experience. Compare t his to BotW, where if you find a weapon, you can use said weapon. Your usage of any single weapon is not gated behind arbitary numbers. And because of this, you also have levels of player expression that completely decimate Elden Ring. Watch that combat montage video. You would never be able to do anything close to that in ER, simply because your toolkit is restricted behind avatar power.

That is not a loss at all.

The fact is. I am praising systems that are infinitely more complex than Elden Ring (Pathfinder), while also praising systems that are remove them entirley (Sekiro, BotW). Either make the choice interesting, like the former, or don't bother like the latter. If Avatar Power systems do nothing but restrict your player expression in the moment to moment gameplay. Get rid of it.

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hardwenzen

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#126  Edited By hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 28288 Posts
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:
@Maroxad said:
@hardwenzen said:

Str as a stat is on a lot of weapons. You don't have to use a strength build to have some requirement from Str. This balances out the stats spread, partially removing powerfcreep at lower levels. And the other points i've mentioned are valid, but as always, because you want to simplify everything, you ignore them cuz you want this to become Angry Birds 2.

You're literally the only person i've ever heard bitchin' about attributes in a souls game. People complained that there's nothing like it in Sekiro, and here you are, the one who wants to be simplified to obivion. I think you're playing the wrong games, bro. You need to stick with Nintendo titles where you're jumping on mushrooms and collect stars. That way you wouldn't be able to ignore any stats cuz there's none to begin withπŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Again, nothing you changes takes away from the fact that 4 of ER's attributes only impact your build utilizes them. They are obvious dump stats otherwise.

And people havent mentioned ER in particular but people have been vocal about attribute systems sucking as a concept, especially in RPG communities. It is a vestige from D&D. All of the flaws, they bring up are just as present in Elden Ring, some of them even worse.

If a weapon I use has A scaling in Strength, and D scaling in Dex, Why would I ever want to put points in Dex, unless I specifically want to use a weapon that also scales more with Dex? In Pathfinder, my Barbarian will still want AC and reflex saves. More intelligence means they can learn more languages and skills. Wisdom will be great for saving throws.

My reason for opposing ER's attributes is simple. I don't like feature bloat. If you are gonna implement something, do it right. And unfortunately. ER does not do attributes well at all.

What exactly would Elden Ring lose, by merging str and dex?

The only dump state Fromsoft titles had is adaptability in DkS2. You running 1 generic build for your whole playthrough does not mean that someone who spends hundreds of hours in pvp OR going for NG+7 won't be taking advantage of everything in the game when it comes to attributes.

This is a lie that you've made up to create an argument. I play and follow these games since the very beginning. The only negative you ever hear about its stats is that its very confusing for someone who is new to Fromsoft titles, which is true, but this is not a simpleton's Zelda game, its not supposed to be instantly understood. Its called learning the god damn game.

Because there are something something called Quality builds. Dex stat scaling might begin with a D, but end up with a B, which will give you a lot of additional damage. But lets say that this is not the case, combining Dex and Str into one is incredibly dumb. Dex is usually there for Dex class weapons such as Katanas, Spears, etc. Strength is for Great Axes, Ultra GS's, etc. Having ultra greatswords scale with Dex would be the kind of simplification you'd see on a f2p game on your phone, and that is what you want? Well, i am not surprised, but your idea is dumb, and nobody in the whole massive souls community wants it.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

ER, more so than any previously released souls titles, offers a humongus amount of build diversity. Not many games in the whole industry can even approach what's on offer here. And it doesn't even matter if the majority of those builds are nowhere near what you'd consider as "meta". What's important is that a person who is playing the game for the first time, they can built their character EXACTLY the way they want it to be. This kind of flexibility is one of the things that makes these games immersive.

Read paragraph 3.

If you run a str build that doesnt use magic, Int and faith are obvious dump stats. They wont do anything for you.

In fact, now that I have woken up, I have heard plenty of people be critical of the system. There is a reason there that Sekiro got a lot of praise, the removal of RPG elements was one of them.

As usual, you fall straight back to ignoring the actual issue. The issue with Elden Ring's 4 scalilng attributes is just that. They do nothing but scale certain weapons (also spell speed for dex). I am not asking for more weapon scaling, I am asking for ways those attributes affect you outside weapon scaling. Why exactly do you think I brought up Pathfinder? My argument does not come from mobile phone games at all. They come from having actually played Tabletop RPGs. Have you even played Tabletop RPGs?

It is not about "meta" at all. It is pretty obvious for a first time player, that they some stats will benefit them more than others. But in turn, being stuck with dex weapons or str weapons. Will SEVERELY limit what weapons they can use. And in turn, limit their experience. Compare t his to BotW, where if you find a weapon, you can use said weapon. Your usage of any single weapon is not gated behind arbitary numbers. And because of this, you also have levels of player expression that completely decimate Elden Ring. Watch that combat montage video. You would never be able to do anything close to that in ER, simply because your toolkit is restricted behind avatar strength.

That is not a loss at all.

What is your point here? If you're using a pure Str build, nothing else but vigor and endurance matters. Are you gonna consider everything else as a dump stat? So lets remove them from the game, its a dump stat btw... Again, Adaptability was the only stat in these games that was worthless and should never been introduced, a real dump stat.

You're making stuff up again. Nobody praised Sekiro because it has no rpg mechanics lmao. People praised it because its a good challenging game, and plenty of people criticized it for having zero replayablity BECAUSE of no build diversity.

I already told you that adding a spread of different stat scaling balances certain weapons. You don't want Moonveil to have nothing but Int scaling, and being able to be abused at level 15. I really don't understand why you're bitching about this. Its here for balance and quality builds. You don't like it? Use your str wep that has nothing but a Str requirement.

Nobody cares about the simplton's combat system in your botw. Its a game for kids, and i don't want anything combat system related from botw in ER. Every single Souls game released has a combat system so far ahead of botw that its like comparing Ryse Son of Rom combat to DMC5. And you mentioning that some stats will benefit a first time player etc etc. Well, first of all, they can respec if needed. Secondly, the whole beauty of these games is learning and experimenting. New player not taking full advantage of whatever they're using is not important, because they won't know how good the "full advantage" is. Not to mention that by pumping Str and Dex, you have a metric ton of usable weapons, so your "severly limited" is false yet again.

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Maroxad

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#127  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 22025 Posts
@hardwenzen said:

What is your point here? If you're using a pure Str build, nothing else but vigor and endurance matters. Are you gonna consider everything else as a dump stat? So lets remove them from the game, its a dump stat btw... Again, Adaptability was the only stat in these games that was worthless and should never been introduced, a real dump stat.

You're making stuff up again. Nobody praised Sekiro because it has no rpg mechanics lmao. People praised it because its a good challenging game, and plenty of people criticized it for having zero replayablity BECAUSE of no build diversity.

I already told you that adding a spread of different stat scaling balances certain weapons. You don't want Moonveil to have nothing but Int scaling, and being able to be abused at level 15. I really don't understand why you're bitching about this. Its here for balance and quality builds. You don't like it? Use your str wep that has nothing but a Str requirement.

Nobody cares about the simplton's combat system in your botw. Its a game for kids, and i don't want anything combat system related from botw in ER. Every single Souls games released has a combat system so far ahead of botw that its like comparing Ryse Son of Rom combat to DMC5. And you mentioning that some stats will benefit a first time player etc etc. Well, first of all, they can respec if needed. Secondly, the whole beauty of these games is learning and trying stuff. New player not taking full advantage of whatever they're using is not important, because they won't know how good the "full advantage" is. Not to mention that by pumping Str and Dex, you have a metric ton of usable weapons, so your "severly limited" is false yet again.

The point, as I have repeated multiple times. Is that if several stats do absolutely NOTHING. If your equipment does not scale with them. In a game like pathfinder, even if you are not using a finesse weapon, you will still find use for dexterity. In the form of reflex saves, combat maneuverability, armor class and so on.

In the same game, Mages with low strength, may struggle carrying components if they have a really low strength score. due to low carry capacity.

In Elden Ring doesnt matter if my dex is 5 or 20. It would make no difference. If anything, those 15 extra points would be considered wasted points that could have gone somewhere else. Elden Ring doesnt provide compelling choices at all. They provide an illusion of choice.

And just how many do that? Especially with respecs being finite in number. Hoarding and human nature does NOT work in favor of your argument at all. People arent going to spend a finite resource to try a single weapon. Especially since their starting class (unless they play a wretch) are already pushing their characters toward a certain attribute. By having weapons generally scale with either str or dex. You are cutting a player's choices in half. And you don't even get any interesting choices out of it like you would in say... Pathfinder or D&D.

And high level combat in BotW is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more expressive than that in Elden Ring. It isn't even close. One of the reasons for this is because unlike ER, players can utilize their entire toolkit. Because they aren't limited to the numbers assigned to their avatar.

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#128  Edited By Mozelleple112
Member since 2011 • 9630 Posts

@hardwenzen: I thought two handing didn't directly increase your damage, but instead just multiplied your STR value by 1.5x?

I.e., lets say you have a GUTS sword that has S scaling in STR and you have 60 STR. If you two hand it your STR goes up to 90 STR = huge increase in damage. (even bigger if you went from 1H40 --> 2H60).

But if you use Darkmoon Blade two handing it is pretty much useless as A) it only scales E or D with STR and B) you only have 15 STR, so your STR only goes from 15 to 22.

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#129  Edited By Mozelleple112
Member since 2011 • 9630 Posts

@hardwenzen:

But anyways, don't you agree that stats should scale more and classes should matter more?

There's lots of build variety... If you arbitrarily cap your self to level 125 or level 150, which IMO is too low even for a single playthrough.

And I like doing NG+, NG++ etc.

I wish everything scaled all the way up to 99 and that the PVP cap was RL300. (my main char is RL335)

So my FTH character started out as pure FTH but as STR/DEX and ARC starting giving me way more output I have now turned into everything but INT build.

60 VIG | 50 END | 50 MIN | 60 STR | 60 DEX | 65 FTH | 60 ARC | 9 INT

I have basically maxed out every FTH, ARC and Quality weapon in the game, while also being decent for pure STR and pure DEX. I have 65FTH but I am got literally zero gains going from 60 to 65 lool. I use all of the FTH weapons and Dragon Communion Seal (scales S with Arc and has like 350 Incant Scaling)

if everything actually scaled properly (obviously the enemies and NG cycles would have to be redesigned)

My build might look something like:

95 VIG | 85 END | 30 MIN | 50 STR | 20 DEX | 99 FTH | 10ARC | 9 INT (Holy Paladin)

or

95 VIG | 55 END | 65 MIN | 20 STR | 20 DEX | 99 FTH | 75ARC | 9 INT (dragon priest)

etc...

Instead you have to artificially cap yourself to make different builds...

Just my opinion. Remove all caps. Make each starting class have their own benefit/boon/bonus as well as their own curse/weakness. Nothing to big, but a warrior should not be able to efficiently cast magic and an astrologer should not be wielding a giant fucking hammer imo. I guess its my 11,200 hours of Diablo 2 speaking here.

Then you can have different meta/PVP levels

RL100 = low level

RL200 = mid level

RL300+ = high level